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TML biweekly    Wed Jun 15 21:00:02 EDT 1994    Volume 46 : Issue 16

Today's topics:

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 641  8000 14-Jun-1994 b.borich@genie.  TNE: Shall not Perish <<     <Thanks, B
 641  8001 14-Jun-1994 "Les Howie"      TCS meets FF&S. << Would anyone be inte
 641  8002 14-Jun-1994 PPUGLIESE@pimac  Re: TML nightly: Msgs 7950-7957 V76#8 <
 641  8003 14-Jun-1994 "Les Howie"      Impact Missiles << pihlab@cbr.hhcs.gov.
 641  8004 14-Jun-1994 Roger Myhre      How to make black holes   << "Tariq M. 
 641  8005 14-Jun-1994 Roger Myhre      Lasers yet again          << Juergen Ki
 641  8006 14-Jun-1994 KELLOGG@thorin.  Ancient Coyns << Hans was writing about
 641  8007 14-Jun-1994 eabaltz@MIT.EDU  TNE: Lasers << One obvious use for the 
 641  8008 14-Jun-1994 eabaltz@MIT.EDU  TNE: Missiles << Eric Moore says (messa
 641  8009 14-Jun-1994 TML Administrat  Re: Is it gone yet?  << Rob Dean <robde
 641  8010 14-Jun-1994 David Johnson    TNE: *Shall Not Perish* RICE Papers << 
 641  8011 15-Jun-1994 "Glenn M. Goffi  Feudal technocracy potshots << Potshots
 641  8012 15-Jun-1994 "Upton, Django"  Remote controlled fighters << Roger Myh
 641  8013 15-Jun-1994 tom@csvax1.ucc.  Re: Feudal Technocracies etc. << > "Gle
 641  8014 15-Jun-1994 tom@csvax1.ucc.  RE: feudal system -Magna Carta << Given
 641  8015 15-Jun-1994 rancke@diku.dk   All: Coyns << Scott Kellogg writes:
 641  8016 15-Jun-1994 Roger Myhre      Lasers and missiles       << "Les Howie

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Bundle: 641
Archive-Message-Number: 8000
From: b.borich@genie.geis.com
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 94 09:53:00 UTC
Subject: TNE: Shall not Perish

    <Thanks, Bryan, for making this available.> You're welcome. Sorry it
took so long, but forgot about it and than had troubles (extracting and
getting the mailer to accept it)
    <Since we're examining the Regency it makes since to use the *POT*
figures, doesn't it?> I'd also suggest that POT should be used as a
guideline, not a 'Bible'. The Regency is different in nature from the
worlds depicted in POT.
 
     <An interesting concept.  Does this mean *every* military asset in the
Regency must be retrofitted in some fashion?> All computers will be refitted.
There is a probability of a ban on robots, at least as independent entities,
as fixed installations they still might be acceptable.
    Most older vessels will probably be refitted to newer tech (this being
easier than building new ships) where possible. The Regency needs to use
whatever technological advantage it has so that it can best protect its
boarders (Virus, Zhodani, Aslan, Vargr, etc...).
    <You think so?  I would have thought that use of this sort of weapon would
have become quite inconceivable after the Viral Collapse.> The TNE book
I believe states that the Regency has a captive virus.
    <A `true' heir to the Iridium Throne showing up with a Unification Fleet?
(Rebellion II).> See Arrival Vengeance....
    <Regency nobles upset at the `democractic' reforms taking place (Rebellion
III).
    Regency `democracts' upset at the slow pace of `reforms' (Rebellion IV).>
If either of these happen I would figure on assassination wars, somewhat like
the Aslan, I think most of the leaders would be too worried about the Virus
for one thing at least to start a major war. Unless of course said individual
is certifiably insane, which I admit there is always a possibility of. But
I think Norris is smart enough to use whatever methods he needs to clean
things up....

------------------------------

Bundle: 641
Archive-Message-Number: 8001
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 94 08:42:39 ADT
From: "Les Howie"  <lhowie@192.219.29.90>
Reply-To: "Les Howie"  <lhowie@Prograph.Com>
Subject: TCS meets FF&S.

Would anyone be interested in a FF&S/BL Based TCS 
Campaign?  If enough folks would be interested, I would 
be happy to run one.

The game would be two-sided, with players allocated to 
sides in order of request to join.  The players on each 
side will have to work out among themselves command 
procedures, ship designs, etc.

The campaign would take place between two subsector-
sized units, with a third frontier sector seperating 
them.  Both sides will be assumed to have come up to 
TL13 within the past year, so existing fleet production 
will be 20% TL11, 80%TL12, + TL13 production as desired 
from one year's budget starting 52 weeks before the 
start of game.

If there are requests, I may add a couple of tertiary 
powers to the game.

Tactical combat would be resolved by the referee, in 
accordance with player's orders and with the aid of the 
local gaming group.  At critical junctures in a tactical 
situation, if there is a player with the force, I will 
consult if I feel input is required.

I expect the game to move quite slowly, with generous 
deadlines (and especially so during initial design and 
periods of intense tactical activity).

I will assume that the two societies at conflict are 
reatively open, so that many details of at least older 
designs will be public knowledge (...pass me Jane's, 
will you?)  and particlarly interesting designs and 
events will be posted to TML.

If you are interested, please email me directly.  I will 
allow a couple of weeks to gather responses, and judge 
from that if I should proceed.


Les Howie
Prograph International


------------------------------

Bundle: 641
Archive-Message-Number: 8002
Date: 14 Jun 1994 05:10:42 -0700
From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
Subject: Re: TML nightly: Msgs 7950-7957 V76#8

As far as the "dearth" of posts in the XMTL, so gleefully pointed out
by Dave Johnson, goes, the whole point of it was to eliminate the TNE
drivel, much of which originates from the previously mentioned person,
whose main efforts seem to be stirring up acrimony ala an InterNet news-
group. Fortunately the amount of garbage is alot lower on the XMTL. 
If that means the volume is lower too then I look on it as something
positive.  

Phil
Pugliese


------------------------------

Bundle: 641
Archive-Message-Number: 8003
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 94 09:18:55 ADT
From: "Les Howie"  <lhowie@192.219.29.90>
Reply-To: "Les Howie"  <lhowie@Prograph.Com>
Subject: Impact Missiles

pihlab@cbr.hhcs.gov.au wrote
> Subject: TNE: Anti-matter missile
> 
> 
> Firstly, I don't see why a missile impact is impossible ... s**t happens.
 Frankly, I don't either.  I can see where, given the ranges and velocities
of space combat, it would be very hard, but no matter how improbably it is, a
ship can be constructed to deliver enough missles quickly enough to make at
least one hit probable -- and an impact by even one delayed-detonation H-bomb
riding in a high velocity penetrator ought to really ruin your day.

OTOH, can you image how the "tradition" based gamers would react to missles
becoming genuinely effective?  In traditional high guard, a missile armed
figher cannot seriously threaten a large warship.  With impact nukes honestly
represented, they could.  Perhaps that is what the decision to ban them was
based on.


Les Howie
Prograph International


------------------------------

Bundle: 641
Archive-Message-Number: 8004
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 16:04:29 +0200
From: Roger Myhre <myhre@oslonett.no>
Subject: How to make black holes  

"Tariq M. Rashid" <spstmr@gsusgi2.gsu.edu> writes:
>How do you make a black hole?  You need at least several solar masses o
>material concentrated in one place so that even the neutrons cannot
>support it.  Of course there is gravitational compression ala TNE, it
>could work....anybody?
Possible or not, I do think we are talking Ancients technology here. Or
close to it at least.



>That done, why would you want to?  Well, once it gets moving it aint
>gonna stop, Itll absorb anything that hits it.  Back to antimatter miss
Several SF writers has used black holes or singularities (same thing) as
weapons or as a means of locomotion in either real space or hyperspace.
David Gerrold use it in his latest book "Covenant of Justice". Larry
Niven used it as a murder weapon and as a weapon from destroying
starships. One of the two latter (if not both) stories are not realistic
as Stephen Hawkins found that black holes of the size mentioned in these
stories would only exist a few seconds before they ceased to exist.

And a missile with with a black hole must keep the black hole "alive"
until after it is used. And this will undoubtfully cost power and/or
mass. How much? do anyone know? [sigh, back to the drawing board]


Roger "StarWolf" Myhre
                            

------------------------------

Bundle: 641
Archive-Message-Number: 8005
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 16:04:29 +0200
From: Roger Myhre <myhre@oslonett.no>
Subject: Lasers yet again         

Juergen Kirsch writes:
>at first a big thanks to Roger "StarWolf" Myhre for the Laser table. I'
Thanks, you are welcome :)

>someone did the work for me ;-). Roger, can you tell me if the Focal Ar
>are designed to stand overpowered ROFs?
They can take ROF overpowering according to the rules given in BL. That
will say; To get a -1 difficulty level you multiply the power
requirement with 5, and with 10 for a -2 difficulty level.

How do the cost come out for lasers not using gravitic focusing? That
could be interesting to know for those who are going to the tournament
GDW will hold at GenCon. Alas I can't come this year. I hope I'll make
it next year.


Roger "StarWolf" Myhre
                                                                                
     

------------------------------

Bundle: 641
Archive-Message-Number: 8006
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 10:06:18 -0500 (CDT)
From: KELLOGG@thorin.uthscsa.edu
Subject: Ancient Coyns

Hans was writing about alternate coyn sets for the Droyne.
Suggestions for alternate Coyns:

In the modern set we have the six castes.  An ancient set might
have seven.  The seventh caste being that of the ancients
themselves:  Grandfather and his children.

While I think that the races idea being representative of their
respective personality types, I might also suggest that they
represent the competition that the Droyne face in the present
setting.  Grandfather, when setting out the coyns thought he had
better show the Droyne who/what else was out there in the universe.
I guess I'm thinking of Niven's Ringworld Engineers where the Pak
had built their ringworld with bits and pieces of other worlds to
serve as warnings to their descendents:  Earth, Mars, Kzin etc.

But at other times, it was not apparant just who were the races
that Grandfather might want to show to the Droyne.  Example:  Until
the Aslan hit space, they were a pretty small deal.  Thus, Coyns
from before that time wouldn't include them.

But what other races are out there?

The extinct race on Sabmiqys:  The Gya Ks.  Until -8000 when their
planet was wiped out, these guys must have looked like a potent
force to Gramps. (TL 17 but no jump drive.) [Challenge]

The extinct race on Spica now known as the Hasst'kor:  The creators
of the Prt'.  Until -10000 when they were wiped out in a war, they
were doing quite well.  (TL 16) [Challenge]

The Droashav, also known as the G'naak by the K'kree:  The original
G'naak carnivores who almost conquered Kirur in -27000.  Their TL
is unknown, but was at least TL10, and some of their
instrumentation has survived 23000 years without any maintenance.
(Sounds like TL 16+ to me, but no jump drive).  [MegaTrav Journal]

The Hhkar:  The stogie smoking lizards have been in space since
- -50000.  (TL10 but no jump drive.)  [Challenge]

The intelligent Chamax thingies:  (Unlikely, but these guys were
space faring in the 700s. (TL9-10 but no jump drive) [Double
Adventure 5]

The unnamed alien race in Traveller's Digest #21.  These guys were
just sort of thrown in without any explanation.  They were
obviously some kind of servant race for the Ancients.

The Primordials:  These guys who were so dang powerful, they made
Grandfather look like a doddering senile old Worker Caste.  Then
they got bored and died.  I almost did too when I read that one.
[Knightfall]

Alternately, an ancient set of coyns might have proto-vargr on
them.  Vargr looked quite different in -300,000.

Or How about Dolphins?

How about another dead alien race we've never heard of before in
Traveller?  The Krell from Forbidden Planet?  The things from
Aliens (JTAS)?  The creatures the Aliens originally snacked on in
Alien?  Larry Niven's Slavers?  David Brin's Progenitors?  Arthur
C. Clarke's Ramans?  The Ancient High Martians from Space: 1889?
The Daleks?  The aliens from UFO?  The Mysterons from Captain
Scarlet?  The alien races from 2300AD?  James P. Hogan's giant
Ganymeans.  Saberhaugen's Berserker creators?  The Moties?  H. P.
Lovecraft's Ancient Ones?  The mice from Hitch Hiker's Guide to the
Galaxy?  The Hive creatures from Alt.Pub.Havens-Rest?

Who knows, maybe in the future we may be seeing coyns with Ael Yael
on them or Brinn, or Newts?  [The players find a bag of coyns that
went through a time warp.  From the past, or the future? :-]

Scott 2G Kellogg
PS to the people involved in my Trav Sale.  Don't worry, I'm
getting things organized!
^Z

------------------------------

Bundle: 641
Archive-Message-Number: 8007
From: eabaltz@MIT.EDU
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 94 18:14:54 -0400
Subject: TNE: Lasers


One obvious use for the short range highly efficient X-ray lasers is in 
defense against fighters and missiles, both of which need to be close to 
attack.  Range isn't needed, and much better firepower is available without 
gravitic focusing.  In fact, for missile defense it might be advantageous to 
put more than one laser in a turret.  Hers's a TL15 turret design that has 
three lasers, each of which fires at 800 per turn.  Three shots at -5 Diff... 
can it miss????

This system uses one beam pointer and one HPG for all three lasers.  If a 
separate beam pointer and HPG are used, the power drops to about 200 MJ, still
adequate for missile defense.

With a little geometry, I determined that each focal array has a diameter of
1.65 meters.  This makes effective range 5.5 hexes.  The focal arrays are 
built to fire at 800 shots per turn.

Discharge Energy 430 MJ (each), Input Energy 506 MJ (each)

Beam Pointer (5 Hex)    1.5 tons        1.5 kl          .15MCr
Focal Arrays            22.07 tons      22.07 kl        4.414MCr
HPG                     35.42 tons      17.71 kl        .1771MCr

This totals 58.99 tons, 4.7411 MCr, and Draws 675 MW at maximum rate of fire.

Performance is:

5: 52-1/17      10: 29-1/9      20: 14-1/5      40: 7-1/2

Its pretty crummy at long range, but with three shots, each at -5 Diff, it 
probably wont miss.  Firing every .75 seconds... if YOU were a fighter pilot, 
would you go anywhere near this thing???  :)

Ted Baltz
eabaltz@athena.mit.edu



------------------------------

Bundle: 641
Archive-Message-Number: 8008
From: eabaltz@MIT.EDU
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 94 18:35:52 -0400
Subject: TNE: Missiles


Eric Moore says (message 7987) that 1 MJ per square centimeter is enough to do
serious damage to antennas.  I agree with this, but GDW apparently doesn't.  
Their guidline for lasers is that 1 MJ per square cm is about a point of 
damage.  I think that warships would be built with a different design 
philosophy if large nukes were a mainstay of space combat.  A missile gets 
within 100 km, detonates, and then your blind because all of your antennas are
slag.  This isn't exactly a difficult fire control problem either.  Antennas
would be designed to better withstand this kind of abuse.  A zillion watt 
particle accelerator in a jillion ton vessel is useless if you've burnt off all
the antennas.  maybe you could look through a porthole and aim???  :)

Large fusion bombs aren't that hard to build, especially at higher tech levels.
They're also MUCH cheaper than antimatter.  And even if you want to be 
environmentally conscious, there is a known fusion process that is entirely
clean.  Boron-11 fusing with a proton (hydrogen nucleus) produces a Carbon-12 
nucleus which is stable, and some gamma rays.  No positrons, no nasty 
radioactive waste.  Just soot.  Of course for it to be clean is has to be
detonated by inertial confinement (lasers), or by gravitic confinement if you
want to use that tech.  And boron-11 isn't even that rare.  The other naturally
occuring isotope (B-10 i think) is commonly used in reactor shielding.  The
palnt to separate natural boron are already lying around.  There's even piles
of Boron-11 already separated.  The only catch is that its a lot harder to make
it fuse than the hydogen reactions.

Another design point: forget solid fuel on space missiles.  Put a small 
powerplant (2 MW) and a 8G HePlaR drive on it.  Then you can carry about 100
g-turns of fuel, and fly circles around other missiles.  And why not more than
one warhead.  The missiles in Brilliant Lances aren't very optimized.  Unless
an 8G missile needs 80 points of armor.  This is clearly ridiculous.  40cm of 
steel on a 7m long missile?????  what were they thinking???

Ted Baltz
eabaltz@athena.mit.edu

------------------------------

Bundle: 641
Archive-Message-Number: 8009
Subject: Re: Is it gone yet? 
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Administrator)
From: TML Administrator <traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca>
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 94 16:44:29 PDT


Rob Dean <robdean@access.digex.net> writes:
> Has the horrible message eating monster been banished yet?

I think it's fixed.

James

- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
James Perkins, List Administrator                       Eugene, Oregon, USA
Traveller Mailing List (incl. The New Era)   traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca
Xboat Traveller Mailing List (Classic & MegaT)   xboat-request@engrg.uwo.ca

------------------------------

Bundle: 641
Archive-Message-Number: 8010
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 94 19:24:40 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: TNE: *Shall Not Perish* RICE Papers

Gentlesophonts:

From TML 613/7706, Jeff Zeitlin <jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com> writes:

> 6.  When Will the RICE Paper for <insert chosen planet here> Be
>     Available?
> 
> In order to get the highest quality reports from the field, we
> have chosen not to require that a particular planet be done at a
> particular time.  We do record requests, and, when demand
> warrants, add requested planets to a list of the "Ten Most
> Desired Destinations" distributed to all RICE Liaison Offices.

Here are my votes:

 1. Mora/Mora, the Regency capital
 2. Deneb/Usani, capital of Deneb
 3. Gazulin/Gazulin, cradle of Denebian democracy?
 4. Regina/Regina, home of the Aledons
 5. Glisten/Glisten, with an *ihatei* Duke?
 6. Rhylanor/Rhylanor, base of the Santanocheevists?
 7. Lintl/Vestus, `capital' of Reft
 8. Pretoria/Pretoria, gateway to the Vargr Extents
 9. Magash/Sabine, workhorse of the Regency
10. Vincennes/Vincennes, pinnacle of technology

What about yours?  (Don't have any preference?  Then get out your copy of
*World Builder's Handbook* and get cracking on these!)

Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 641
Archive-Message-Number: 8011
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 1994 00:03:13 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.sf.ca.us>
Subject: Feudal technocracy potshots

Potshots at feudal technocracy arguments:



David Johnson writes:



>This is the "key part" of the feudal arrangement that will be manifest in

>a feudal technocracy.  In `theory' one might say that a corporation `owns'

>its shares and merely `grants possession' of them to it shareholders in

>return for `services rendered' in the form of financial capital.



This doesn't make any sense.  Under what theory can a corporation 

own its shares and grant possession of them to shareholders, when shares 

themselves are merely evidence of ownership?  Shareholders provide capital 

only once, when they buy.  Lenders providing loan facilities maybe have 

some duty to render service in the form of providing capital.



>No, they provide the technocratic lord with financial capital.  This is

>the equivalent to `fealty' in a technocracy.  



Fealty is loyalty.  How is the provision of money equivalent to loyalty?  

The Chairman--and, more importantly for this discussion, the CEO--

owe a duty of loyalty to the company and the shareholders, not the other 

way around.



>I would express this the other way around.  It is a *portfolio* rather than

>`simply' shares in a single corporation.  A group of shares in a single

>corporate entity makes the shareholder the `vassal' of the `baron' of that

>particular corporation.  



>You say, "Tomato."  Dan Qualye says, "Tomatoe."  :-)  It's the same thing.

>In a feudal *technocractic* model a `part owner' *is* a vassal.



Again, you've turned the relationships around.  The shareholders aren't
vassals;

rather, the management of the corporation owes a duty of loyalty to them,

to maximize the value of their investment.  The employees of the corporation

are closer to vassals of the CEO, and maybe a feudal structure could be

arranged around this idea.



Hans Rancke writes



>A feudal arrangement is not about mere ownership. It's about tenancy in

>exchange for service.



I (probably obviously) agree with this analysis.  What is being held in
tenancy, 

and what kind of service, are the defining issues here.



The text:  Feudal technocracy.  Government by specific individuals for 

those who agree to be ruled.  Relationships are based on the performance

of technical activities which are mutually beneficial.  [Book 3:  Worlds and

Adventures 11 (1981).]

------------------------------

Bundle: 641
Archive-Message-Number: 8012
From: "Upton, Django" <DUpton@VTRNNTOV.TELECOM.com.au>
Subject: Remote controlled fighters
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 94 12:40:00 EST


Roger Myhre wrote:
 -Actually I don't buy the idea of remote controlled fighters. Ever
 -thought about the time lag in communications? And what kind of
 -communicator do you use for control?
 -
 -Laser? Naaah it will be like aiming a 30,000km straw at a target you
 -can't see. And it moves as well. If the communication laser loose the
 -drone once it is lost for ever. And there is a lot of other things that
 -has to work perfectly. Read Challenge 71.
 -
 -Tight beam radio? Better. It sends out a cone of radio waves. Much
 -easier to keep the drone in control, but then we got jamming.

Actually, I think you will find that a laser can have any beam divergence 
you like!
Check out the laser formulae in FF&S.
You can see the remote because you program it to send frequent messages to 
you.
The advantage of a laser communicator is that the high frequency allows the 
antenna to be much smaller than a radio frequency antenna of the same beam 
divergence. Also a true tight beam radio communicator would be just as hard 
to jam as an equivalent laser communicator!

 -The comminication lag is the worst hurdle to get over. If the drone is
 -10 hexes away the update wil take 2 full seconds just in communication.
 -And then we got the reaction time with the controller. Even though we
 -don't got crafts that can't maneuver on a dime anymore, there will be a
 -lot of operations that need short response times or else the craft may
 -be lost. Just a mudane thing as few controls cease to work properly.

The communications lag is a real problem if you are trying to do "seat of 
the pants" flying by direct control but is less so if a certain amount of 
automation is allowed.
By fitting your remote with sensors and a computer capable of determining a 
target solution it can attack the enemy without direct intervention of the 
controller!
The computer can also be programmed to perform evasive maneuvers!
The remote controller's function is to make "executive" decisions; which 
ship to attack, when to evade, which sensors to use etc.

The K'kree CAN use this for remote fighters but whether they WANT to after 
the effects of the virus on computer controlled weapon systems, particularly 
on those in constant communication with other computers is another matter.

"A most unwilling suspension of disbelief"

Django

------------------------------

Bundle: 641
Archive-Message-Number: 8013
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 1994 13:21:33 BST
From: tom@csvax1.ucc.ie
Subject: Re: Feudal Technocracies etc.


> "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.sf.ca.us> said (among other things)
> 
> The problem that I'm running into in analogizing feudal landlord-ocracy into
> feudal technocracy is that I'm using terminology, and the attendant systems,
> that comes from capitalism, which is a different development altogether.
> Having advanced from feudalism to capitalism, can we have a feudal structure
> again?

I think the answer is yes. It better be in the Imperium, since FT's are so
common. A FT does not need to be capitalist - indeed the very system would
often dictate against capitalism. If control of a particular resource
determines one's place in society, selling it off may not make sense.
(As Hans mentioned in a previous posting). There does not necessarily even
have to be money (at least in the form we currently recognise it).

<snip>
> How have referees handled the question of slavery in the CT era?  Do your
> Imperia allow slaves?  Interstellar slave trading?  Feudal technocratic
> serfdom?

Slavery has been acknowledged as existing in a number of Traveller 
publications. By Imperium law, slavery is outlawed. However, by the policy
of imperial non-interference in local affairs, it seems that many local
populations effectively live in serfdom, if not outright slavery. It
also makes for stirring adentures and story-lines, regardless of 
whether it makes economic sense or not.

This actually is quite relevant. One characteristic of the feudal system
is some form of serfdom or slavery for the common people. In the 19th
century company-store-type wage-slavery produced a serf-like relationship
between employees and company owners - thus the industrial Robber-Barons
were born. Feudalism has been called a medieval protection racket. The
common people were almost powerless and lived at the whim of their lords.
Certainly, I associate feudalism with powerlessness for the common
people.

If this is a common attribute of FT's, then they will tend to be 
isolationist and xenophobic, at least at higher social levels, to prevent
the commons from getting ideas above their station. This also makes
social status extremely important in such a society, and anything that
risks it something to be avoided. Capitalism and the rising mercantile
class is what destroyed feudalism - money replaced land as the measure
of a person's worth, and penniless nobles found themselves in debt
to rich but unlanded merchants.

I will try to give an example of a non-capitalist FT.

Consider a vacuum world with a number of population centres. At some stage
the environmental engineers controlling the life support systems perform a
takeover and gain political power by virtue of their technical knowledge
ie. their ability to selectively turn off the life support systems. This 
covers the technocracy aspect of the definition.

The takeover being successful, the engineers use the already-established
life-support regions to define their individual holdings, or feifs.
Holding the de-facto power of life and death in these regions, they can
distribute the control of industries and buildings pretty much as they
desire, creating vassals. The people in these regions are dependent on 
their Regional Engineer (Baron/Lord) for their continued existence. 
Resources are traded between regions on the barter system, the resources
including workers (serfs/slaves) with special skills. Engineers provide
their serfs with all the necessities of life for service, not payment. 
A Planetary Engineer (king) may or may not exist, but if he does he 
adjudicates disputes between regional engineers, appoints replacements 
when there is no clear successor and appoints new engineers to newly 
formed regions, which may occur from building or reorganisation. 
This is the feudal component of the FT.

The above system could use money, but I left it out to make my point.
(perhaps they have a religious objection - after all, money is the
root of all evil). The above system will only work so long as the
serfs accept their subordinate position. An Engineer's title depends
on his control of the life-support apparatus of his area, and trading
or selling it means losing control of that region. Anyone who gains
control of a region must be able to operate it's environmental systems,
as that is the basis of his rule there, whether that is personal 
control or control of subordinates loyal to him - but the latter leaves
him open to betrayal and takeover by his subordinates.

This is just one example, and I hope it is a useful contribution to this
ever-expanding thread.
                                                Tom

  Tom O'Neill  |   Tom@CSVAX1.UCC.IE        SCCS6085@IRUCCVAX.UCC.IE 
- ---------------!--------------------------------------------------------------
                    Fact is stranger than fiction

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Bundle: 641
Archive-Message-Number: 8014
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 1994 13:28:24 BST
From: tom@csvax1.ucc.ie
Subject: RE: feudal system -Magna Carta

Given all the feudal discussion, just to tell you that the Magna Carta was
signed at Runnymede on this day, 15 June, 1215 AD, when King John's
strong baron's forced him to reduce his power and cede them more rights.
:-)
                                                Tom

  Tom O'Neill  |   Tom@CSVAX1.UCC.IE        SCCS6085@IRUCCVAX.UCC.IE 
- ---------------!--------------------------------------------------------------
                    Fact is stranger than fiction

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Bundle: 641
Archive-Message-Number: 8015
From: rancke@diku.dk
Subject: All: Coyns
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 1994 16:30:07 +0100 (METDST)

Scott Kellogg writes:
>In the modern set we have the six castes.  An ancient set might
>have seven.  The seventh caste being that of the ancients
>themselves:  Grandfather and his children.

Quite possible. It was a judgement call wether the coyns had been modified
during the 2000-year Ancients period. Just as it was a judgement call that
the pre-Ancients didn't have more than one set of coyns. I decided in the
end that though coyns had been important during the Ancient period (as
evidenced by their widespread occurence in Ancient installations) they
had not been of such paramount importance as they became when casting
became dependent on them (In fact, a case could be made for the caste
coyns not being original, but that would leave me with six more to make
up).

>While I think that the races idea being representative of their respective 
>personality types, I might also suggest that they represent the competition 
>that the Droyne face in the present setting.  

That's my own theory. 

>But at other times, it was not apparant just who were the races
>that Grandfather might want to show to the Droyne.  Example:  Until
>the Aslan hit space, they were a pretty small deal.  Thus, Coyns
>from before that time wouldn't include them.

Right. In my universe Grandfather (Or rather, those mysterious beings who
gave rise to the Grandfather myth) last revised the coyns around -1000.

I hadn't thought much about the interim sets. My players are on a Grand
Tour to a number of previously undetected Ancient sites in the Spinward
Marches (courtsey of a Hiver archeologist with an Ancient artifact) and
one of the stops will be Vanejen where the coyns failed to help the
Chirpers living there regain their ability to caste. Hence I've concen-
trated on the Ancient sets the PCs will find in the sites and the first
coyn set that the Chirpers have kept for 75,000 years (quite a feat, that,
but all their coyn sets have 38 pieces  -  obviously an early variant).
Thanks for your ideas. They would certainly be relevnt for anyone 
excavating old Droyne ruins (as opposed to Ancient ruins). Unless, that
is, Grandpop didn't take care to recall each old set every time he put
out a revised edition... ;-)

>The extinct race on Sabmiqys:  The Gya Ks.  Until -8000 when their
>planet was wiped out, these guys must have looked like a potent
>force to Gramps. (TL 17 but no jump drive.) [Challenge]

I've imagined that the criterion Gramps used to choose was a sizable 
number of planetary populations. That's why the Aslans are there in
spite of not having developed the jump drive themselves (Or perhaps
Gramps used the Major Race criterion and simply didn't realize that
the Aslans had 'cheated').

>The extinct race on Spica now known as the Hasst'kor:  The creators
>of the Prt'.  Until -10000 when they were wiped out in a war, they
>were doing quite well.  (TL 16) [Challenge]

Did they get off the planet in a big way?

>The Hhkar:  The stogie smoking lizards have been in space since
>- -50000.  (TL10 but no jump drive.)  [Challenge]

Definitely a contender. But why would they be removed again? They are
still out there, aren't they? 

>The unnamed alien race in Traveller's Digest #21.  These guys were
>just sort of thrown in without any explanation.  They were
>obviously some kind of servant race for the Ancients.

And propably died out long before -75,000. Anyway, the Ancients propably
had lots of servant races. That's why I don't think the Vargr would be
on any Ancient coyns. Back then they were just one obscure experiment out 
of many.

>The Primordials:  These guys who were so dang powerful, they made
>Grandfather look like a doddering senile old Worker Caste.  Then
>they got bored and died.  I almost did too when I read that one.
>[Knightfall]

Primordials? What Primordials? They've never been heard of in my universe.

>Alternately, an ancient set of coyns might have proto-vargr on
>them.  Vargr looked quite different in -300,000.

And any humans quite different too. In fact, the human on the -75,000 coyn
set is IMO a 'homo antiquitus', humans the way they looked in Ancient times.

>Or How about Dolphins?

My premise is that the last revision took place around -1000.

>How about another dead alien race we've never heard of before in Traveller?  
>The Krell from Forbidden Planet?  The things from Aliens (JTAS)?  [etc.]

And the Originals, forerunners of the Primordials? And the Firstborn. And
the Firstcomers. Ant the Very-firsters. And the Really-truly-swear-to-God-
we-were-the-firsters. Etc, etc.

>Who knows, maybe in the future we may be seeing coyns with Ael Yael
>on them or Brinn, or Newts?  [The players find a bag of coyns that
>went through a time warp.  From the past, or the future? :-]

OUCH! Causality violation alert! Aroooga! Arooogah! Aroogah! ;-)


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

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Bundle: 641
Archive-Message-Number: 8016
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 1994 16:39:03 +0200
From: Roger Myhre <myhre@oslonett.no>
Subject: Lasers and missiles      

"Les Howie"  <lhowie@192.219.29.90> writes:
>Subject: Impact Missiles

>pihlab@cbr.hhcs.gov.au wrote
>> Subject: TNE: Anti-matter missile
>> Firstly, I don't see why a missile impact is impossible ... s**t happ
> Frankly, I don't either.  I can see where, given the ranges and veloci
>of space combat, it would be very hard, but no matter how improbably it
>ship can be constructed to deliver enough missles quickly enough to mak
>least one hit probable -- and an impact by even one delayed-detonation
>riding in a high velocity penetrator ought to really ruin your day.
First if you are to deliver a lot of missiles at one target, the turrets
and barbettes for these has to be better. Something like the VLS system
to USS Ticonderoga. And missiles take up premium space. And the rapid
firing laser thingie mentioned later will stop almost anything that
approaches of missiles. Do you see any use in missiles with 200 armor
points? It leaves precious little space for controls, warhead and drive.



>OTOH, can you image how the "tradition" based gamers would react to mis
>becoming genuinely effective?  In traditional high guard, a missile arm
>figher cannot seriously threaten a large warship.  With impact nukes ho
>represented, they could.  Perhaps that is what the decision to ban them
>based on.
Why must the nuke impact? I believe the electromagnetic pulse generated
will do enough damage to most ships within several hundred kilometers.



eabaltz@MIT.EDU writes:
>One obvious use for the short range highly efficient X-ray lasers is in
>defense against fighters and missiles, both of which need to be close t
>attack.  Range isn't needed, and much better firepower is available wit
>gravitic focusing.  In fact, for missile defense it might be advantageo
>put more than one laser in a turret.  Hers's a TL15 turret design that
>three lasers, each of which fires at 800 per turn.  Three shots at -5 D
>can it miss????
Yes if you roll 17+ three times in a row :)

[technical details cut away]

>Its pretty crummy at long range, but with three shots, each at -5 Diff,
>probably wont miss.  Firing every .75 seconds... if YOU were a fighter
>would you go anywhere near this thing???  :)
Nope, never in a hundred years. Even a brainwashed soldier wouldn't do
anything this crazy. But then again shit happens.


The discussion has taken a very militaristic slant. What about the
traders and pirates? I don't believe merchants will have access to the
best missiles possible. Those available might even be built in a way
that prevents them from detonating in a gravity well, or close to it.
Else any crazy nut can hold a planet for ransome.

From the designs of missiles I have seen from GDW to date are more
suited for civilian crafts than military crafts. Military crafts need
missiles with longer duration and more stealthy one too. Emission
masking on missiles, what are your thoughts about that?

Roger "StarWolf" Myhre
               
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End of TML Biweekly
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